John: [00:00:00] In every corporate environment there is what I call a tribal ecosystem, and your ability to succeed in that tribal ecosystem, just like that TV show Survivor. Uh, which, you know, people say, oh, you worked on Madison Avenue, like Mad Men, right? And I say, no, no, no, like the show Survivor. That’s really what it’s like. So it, it comes down to the, the, your ability to create relationships, whether it’s with a client.

Or whether it’s with the internal people that you need the support from, because once you have that support, then it, then it makes it easier to, to move forward and, and get your, your idea through.

Joel Benge: My name’s Joel and I’m a recovering nerd. I’ve spent the last 25 years bouncing between creative jobs and technical teams. I worked at places like Nickelodeon to NASA and a few others that started with different letters. I was one of the first couple hundred people podcasting back in the early aughts until I accidentally became an IT analyst.

Thankfully, somebody in the government said, “Hey, [00:01:00] you’re a nerd that talks good,” and that’s spun me off into the world of startups, branding, and marketing for the same sort of researchers and startup founders that I used to hang out with. Today, I help technical people learn how to

get noticed,

get remembered,

and get results.

On Nerds That Talk Good,

I wanna help you do the same. I talk with some of the greatest technical communicators, facilitators, and thinkers that I know who are behind the big brands and the tech talk that just works.

What do you get when you cross Madison Avenue,

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and What do you get when you cross Madison Avenue, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and Hollywood?

You get John Follis — award-winning ad man, documentary filmmaker, and creator of Marketing Therapy.

John’s journey started with rejection: fired four times in seven years and flunked by his first ad professor. But his persistence, creativity, and obsession with the Big Idea eventually led to national campaigns, a Harvard Business case study, and invitations to the White House and United Nations.

In this episode, John joins Joel to talk about the power of ideas that move people, how to navigate the politics of creativity, and why therapy might be the best metaphor for modern marketing.Hollywood? Well, you get today’s guest nerd, John Follis He’s an award-winning ad man turned documentary filmmaker whose career has spanned top New York agencies acclaimed campaigns, an even a best film award. From shaping brands to questioning belief itself.

John knows how to grab attention and keep it. But before all that, John was fired four times in seven years and was even flunked by his first college ad instructor who told him he’d never have the talent to succeed. So we’ll talk about overcoming life’s little hiccups like that and how to still have an amazing [00:02:00] career.

John, thank you for joining.

John: Thank you, Joel. Appreciate that. Nice intro.

Joel Benge: Uh, I always like to start off as the John nerd on, on Nerds that Talk Good. The Nerd origin story. And, and you and I go way, way back to before, uh, computers we’re still banging rocks together. So I I I, I’d like you to, to take me back to that time and how you kind of came to where you are now.

John: Yeah, well we talked, uh, previous to this, uh, podcast, Joel, and as I mentioned to you, um, I don’t know that I really consider myself a nerd, although I do have some very nerd like qualities as you just referenced. Um, like you, I got involved with podcasting very early, back in, not quite as early as you, but uh, I had a, a show up in early 2006.

So when I found out about that, I was just very intrigued and figured out how to do it. And, uh, my website went up, I guess in early [00:03:00] 96. And shortly thereafter I was doing. Source coding because I wanted to be able to fix all the typos and all that stuff. So that’s kind of nerd like behavior, I guess. But other than that, I’m really more of a, a creative guy, uh, an idea guy.

So, um, my story is I went to. Syracuse University majored in advertising and, uh, when that, when you do that, you’re supposed to go to New York to try to find a job, uh, on Madison Avenue. I was too intimidated by New York and, uh. Went to Atlanta, worked two years there. Then moved to Chicago, worked three years there.

And finally, after being in the business for five years, I felt I was ready for, you know, the big time and moved to New York and proceeded to get fired a bunch of times. Um, you know, one thing they don’t teach you in school is how to deal with office politics. And, um, I don’t think there’s a city in the world [00:04:00] that’s, uh.

More cutthroat than New York, especially working on Madison Avenue where you’re dealing with all kinds of big egos. Right. And, um, I just didn’t really know how to deal, deal with that. I wasn’t prepared for it. And, uh, it forced me to kind of reevaluate my career. I mean, I, I wasn’t ready to give up, but it just seemed like the corporate environment was not, um, a match for my personality.

I mean, a couple of times I would get hired by someone. Who then left the agency like weeks after bringing me up, uh, bringing me in. And it’s kind of a death sentence. I mean, it’s just, uh, your, your your days are, are pretty much limited if the guy that wants you to be at that agency is no longer there at that agency.

Just, just because it’s a very ego-driven, competitive environment. So, you know, that happened a couple of times, but it forced me to kind of reevaluate and, um, that was really, um. When things started improving with my [00:05:00] career, because I started freelancing and, uh, ended up working on a very, very successful campaign that was a freelance project that actually got a lot of people, um, on Madison Avenue talking and wondering who was behind this campaign.

And it was just me and two other young guys who were doing it as a freelance project. But the campaign was, was running in, in New York magazine, which at the time was a pretty major media, uh, thing. So people were seeing it, noticing it, and it attracted a guy that called me out of the blue and, and, uh, wanted to talk to me about partnering.

He was a business development guy. He was really, he was, he had been looking for a top creative guy to collaborate with. And because he, he noticed this campaign, tracked me down and 20 minutes after meeting with him, he said we should start an ad agency, which is a little bit like [00:06:00] going on a, on a date blind date with someone and then having them say, let’s get married after 20 minutes.

But we started collaborating and he was really, really good at business development, getting opportunities to, um. To, for me to do my work, which is what I never had working in the corporate environment. And I, the reason I didn’t succeed is I don’t really feel like I got a good opportunity. And because he was invested in, um, in, in me as a business partner, um, and very good at sales, we, our agency took off immediately, Joel, it was, it was amazing.

Um, the first account that we got. Was so successful that after three months the client doubled his media billing. It was a TV commercial. He initially spent, uh, $350,000, and I’m talking back in the early nineties, Joel. So 350 K is probably twice that now. But because the results were so [00:07:00] immediate, he doubled his budget.

Not only, what was it great for him, it became a Harvard Business case study, which is, you know, kind of cool. Um, and that was our first account and we just, we continued winning business. And, uh, I was winning creative awards and realized that maybe I didn’t make a mistake by choosing advertising as a career, uh, contrary to what my first advertising instructor told me.

And, uh, that’s, that’s, um. How, you know, how my career ended up being successful. Yeah.

Joel Benge: That’s, that’s incredible. And, you know, it, it, it, it does parallel the experience of a lot of founders and technical people who have a, a, a great idea, but maybe not the, the most, uh, not the business acumen. They get into maybe a, um, a pilot and then the person who brought them in leaves. And when you lose a champion, when you lose the person that you’ve sparked the Big Idea or they saw something in you, [00:08:00] um, that that can be a death to a project. Um, and that happens very frequently, especially, you know, even in long-term projects. Um. Getting that Big Idea though, and having it translated and having it spread really is the, the root of marketing. You know, marketing is less about the technical details, and I’m gonna give you everything.

It’s, it’s grabbing onto that one Big Idea. Um, whi, which as you know. Is, is a big part of my, my model. And you at, at one time did, so then you moved into videos and you had even this, I, I was watching one of your interviews, Big Idea video was kind of your thing for, for a while. What, what do you think about when you think about a Big Idea?

John: An idea is not a Big Idea unless it really does the job you want it to do, which in advertising is, is to get people to respond in a way that gets them to take the action you want them to take, whether it’s to pull out their [00:09:00] credit card or sign up for something, become a member of something, whatever.

The marketing end goal is that it’s an idea that moves your target audience to take that, that action. It’s really that simple, Joel.

Joel Benge: Yeah. And if you don’t know what that, a next action you want them to have, you don’t know what you’re, you’re, if what you’re throwing at them is the Big Idea is gonna move them to, to that

John: Well, if you’re a marketing person, you better know what that is.

Joel Benge: You better know and for, for a lot of the people who, who listen to, to this program, not being marketing people, but find themselves in that position of, of having to advocate for their technology, having to advocate for themselves.

You are a marketer if, unless you have a marketing partner, if you’re a CEO, uh, you have to be, you have to have a marketing hat on. Um, I, I’d love to hear a little bit about some of the bigger challenges that you’ve had as you grew your, um, your agency and, and your communicating and marketing on behalf [00:10:00] of people.

Um. Tell me about some of the challenges that you’ve, that you faced, uh, as you grew. I, I know when I was, uh, in agencies as a content guy writing for 12 to 19 different companies, I felt like they all channeling through me were starting to look and sound the same. And, you know, as an, as an agency owner, you need to give, you need to let the, the client still be in control of their Big Idea.

How do you, how do you manage that?

John: That’s a good question. And I, before I answer that, I just wanna reference something you said previously, um, that business owners have to be marketing people. This is the reason they need to hire people like you, right? Because, um, most business owners may know something about marketing, but they’re certainly not marketing experts.

And if they really wanna be successful and they’re serious about their their business, they need to do what Steve Jobs did. [00:11:00] 1977, 1976. Steve Jobs was a brilliant guy. Everyone thinks he’s a, he’s, he’s a brilliant marketing guy. Well, he was a brilliant marketing guy because he was smart enough to realize that he really wasn’t a brilliant marketing guy when he started out.

And he hired brilliant marketing people. I mean, he hired a guy, uh, I don’t know, six, eight months after he. Co-founded his, his company in 1976 and, and brought in a guy from California who had experienced marketing tech products. Um, I can’t remember his name off hand, but, uh, this guy and his agency was the people that began branding.

Apple. You should see the first Apple logo that Steve came up with with one of his, this associates. I don’t know if you’ve seen it,

Joel Benge: Yeah.

John: but it’s um,

Joel Benge: A wood looks like a wood cut or it’s, it’s a very, very [00:12:00] intricate, and that, that’s, that’s typical of, of IT. Logos. It’s like, I wanna give you all the detail. I wanna tell you everything.

John: It was like an etching of Newton sitting under a tree with an apple falling on his head and like a scroll and a scroll. Uh, it, it was, it was hilarious looking back on it, but this is the point I’m trying to make is that as, as smart as, as, um, Steve Wozniak and, and Steve Jobs were on the technical side, uh, they were not the right people to be marketing the company.

And Steve was smart enough to realize that. Even at a very young age, at a very, very beginning stage of their, their, their business. So this is why I would encourage any of your, uh, listeners who are, um, trying to reckon with their marketing challenges to consider talking to you.

Joel Benge: Well, thank you for that. Well, and, and I think, I think it gets to what our, our role is, is [00:13:00] advocating for the audience, advocating for the market, and becoming that translation layer with. With the client. Um, and so I call what I do, my, my workshops, I call them a sort of therapy. You, for a long time have had, uh, Marketing Therapy, um, which is another reason I wanted to talk to you.

We’re gonna have to hash this out and figure out who owns what, but I’m just joking. Um, t tell me a little bit about your, your perspective and, and what is, where does therapy fit in from, from what we do?

John: Well, I’m,

I’m I’m trying to catch up with your questions. I didn’t really answer your previous question because I was referencing something you said earlier, which I thought was important to, to address, which we did. But you did ask me what were my. Challenges coming up with ideas, right? We were talking about big ideas and you referenced my, um, Big Idea video.

So for me, that was the easy part, to be honest with you. [00:14:00] Um, I was very committed to being the, the best Big Idea person in the business and. Was going to night school, even after I was working, I was taking night courses in creative concept at the School of Visual Arts in New York. So I was constantly, um, honing my, my creative skills and, uh, would just relish the opportunity to, to, uh, do solve a, a problem creatively for the client.

So that, that was never the cha the big challenge for me, I wouldn’t say it was easy, but was what was. The challenges I kept facing was when I decided to, um, venture on an entrepreneurial path and was dealing with all the non-creative issues, even with, even in my partnership, Joel, um, even though we were in sync with what we thought.

A good idea was, and what good advertising [00:15:00] was, which was the really the most important part. We weren’t in sync with some of the other issues related to running a business, and I really had no training in, in, in business and just kind of learned by, by doing it. But, um, I was, um, I felt kind of overwhelmed at times having to, to reconcile and navigate.

The non-creative acts, aspects, uh, of the business. I ended up ha um, suing my partner for breach of contract. I mean, we don’t need to get into it, but, um, I kind of, uh, walked the plank in my own ship at that point just because I felt like, um, I, I wanted to get out of the partnership and then found myself basically with a couple of employees in an office space on Madison Avenue, having to do everything wearing almost every hat.

You know, business development, things like that. So that was a very, [00:16:00] very challenging time when I started going down, down that path. And quite honestly, I didn’t think I could do it without a business partner. And as it turned out, by just trial and error, uh, I ended up doing it for about 22 years.

Joel Benge: So, so what, what I’m hearing is really a pattern of, you know, peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys and, and overcoming and, and, uh, um, pivots as, as the startup. As the startup kids call ’em pivots. Um. What advice might you have to somebody who’s, who’s stepping into this realm? Um, maybe they’re even in-house and they’re, they’re caught between that very, you know, technical talk about ego, um, founder.

And they’re advocating in that, in that, that middle space, um, for, for the audience. And maybe the, the, you know, it’s like just tell ’em everything. And the, you know, you have a savvy marketer who’s like. I have to [00:17:00] stand up for the Big Idea I have to advocate for, for the, for the audience,

John: Well, I’m probably not the best person to ask questions about how to navigate a sophisticated

Joel Benge: what doesn’t work,

John: co corporate environment.

Joel Benge: doing out there.

John: Um, I, you know, that, that, listen, that was, that was my frustration. Um, I was in a meeting once where I was presenting some work. There was probably a dozen people standing around. This creative director was on his hands and knees.

It was, it was pretty comical. You know, back then we were present, we were working on print ads, and he wanted me to make the headline. He said, go back and make the headline. This is when you’re working with paper. Right. So he had a, a paper version of the print ad. And he wanted, he wasn’t sure what size the headline should be, so he asked me to go back to his office and make like five different size versions of the Headli headline.[00:18:00] 

And he was literally on his hands and knees kind of switching different paper copies of the headline. And I made a Wise crack in the meeting to a guy who was standing next to me thinking that, only the guy next to me would hear it, and unfortunately, the creative director was my boss, heard it, and this is in a meeting with 12 people.

So, um, that was kind of, uh, the, the death knoll for my, uh, for my time at that particular agency. So again, I, I, I always had kind of a, when I came across what I consider bullshit, corporate bullshit, it’s like the corporate ecosystem, um, that, um, I, I just, I have a hard time dealing with it.

I have a hard time. Uh, you, you really, that that’s a skill. I don’t know if people are born with it or they, they, they learn how to, uh, uh, deal with it. But, um, that’s a very good [00:19:00] question. You, you asked how, how to deal with those, those subtle things that can make all the difference, right. Between, you know, getting, being able to do your job and coming up with a big, Big Idea.

‘Cause first you’ve gotta convince your internal people that it’s a good, Big Idea before it even sees the client.

Joel Benge: There are, there are layers, and I think people who think, you know, there’s, there’s one person calling the shots, and if you’re a small company, if you’re, if you’re a, um, uh, maybe a founder at a small startup, yeah. That, that can work. But that often can lead to issues. So having a partner, having someone to bounce something through, having process or a filter, not necessarily for the, for the office politics of it, but just the, the sanity.

Sanity checks,

John: It really comes down to relation. It really comes down to relationships. Um, I, I’m sure you can appreciate what I’m saying. It it, you need to have a good relationship. You, if you, if you’re in an internal, I call it the [00:20:00] tribal, the word I was looking for was tribal ecosystem. In every corporate environment there is what I call a tribal ecosystem, and your ability to succeed in that tribal ecosystem, just like that TV show Survivor. Uh, which, you know, people say, oh, you worked on Madison Avenue, like Mad Men, right? And I say, no, no, no, like the show Survivor. That’s really what it’s like. So it, it comes down to the, the, your ability to create relationships, whether it’s with a client.

Or whether it’s with the internal people that you need the support from, because once you have that support, then it, then it makes it easier to, to move forward and, and get your, your idea through.

Joel Benge: I alluded in the, in the intro we, we talked Madison Avenue. Um, we. We haven’t got to Hollywood yet, but you had to stop in there, uh, at the White House in the UN with, with some honors. Um, so how do you go from getting fired four times in seven years to, you [00:21:00] know, showing up on, on probably the, one of the world’s biggest stages?

John: Yeah. Well, it goes back to what we’re talking about, the Big Idea, I mean. In, in a nutshell, um, you can’t underestimate the power of a Big Idea. And when you combine a Big Idea for a really important cause, like child abuse prevention , which is what, uh, the a the ad campaign we did, uh, was addressing and you put a, a media budget behind it of millions and millions of dollars.

So it’s seen by 24 million people. It’s a very powerful thing. Um, what what got me invited to the White House was an idea that I came up with just on my own. Um, after watching TV one night, I learned through a, um, a documentary that Hitler was abused as a kid. And I thought to myself, wow, this could be interesting, an interesting [00:22:00] fact for a child abuse prevention ad.

So I. The, over the next couple weeks came up with a concept that I showed my business partner who said, this is one of the best ads I’ve ever seen, and proceeded to try to sell it. And it’s, it’s not the way you normally do things. You don’t normally come up with an idea and then try to find a client.

Right. But because he was so impressed with the ad, he felt that, uh, it deserved to, to be, to be used. And the client we reached out to. It was just, it was just a very lucky situation. They happened to be collaborating with the NBA, uh, to have the NBA, uh, accept them. A lot of big sports, uh, leagues, if you notice, do a lot of public service work.

So at the time, the NBA was looking to collaborate. With some kind of public service organization and we just happened to, uh, [00:23:00] contact this organization when they were just getting a deal signed with the NBA to have the NBA give them $5 million worth of TV media time. And again, this is back in the early nineties, Joel, so that $5 million back then is probably twice that now or maybe more. They weren’t looking to do a print ad. They were looking for an agency to do some TV commercials. And, uh, because there was a time limit, uh, involved with it, um, they, they, they couldn’t drag their feet in finding an agency to work with. We just happened to show up at the right time. We didn’t, we had no idea why they told us to meet, uh, meet them at the offices of the NBA in New York.

And I found myself showing an ad with Hitler in it to basketball people, which made no sense. So after them telling us, well, you know, we’re not [00:24:00] really, that’s really not what we wanna be doing, but would you be interested in doing this TV campaign, which we ended up doing. And um, I applied my Big Idea thinking to this campaign.

It was about three ads that ran. We’re seen by, you know, over a five week period during the NBA playoffs, which was featuring Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson, you know, against each other in the early nineties. The, my, my spots were seen, they ran the spots like eight or nine times during, during a game. So, you know, $5 million spent in five weeks is, is a lot of exposure.

And again, you know, now it’d be twice that. But the point is it was seen by 24 million people and apparently that included the President of the United States because a month later I got a letter saying we’d like to invite you to a White House reception. Uh, to be one of the people we’d like to honor for their public service efforts.

mean, I, I, I thought, I thought when I got the [00:25:00] invitation, Joel, I, I thought it was a joke. I mean, who gets a letter from the White House inviting you to a reception? Right?

Joel Benge: Wow, that, that’s impressive. So all starting from the Big Idea and timing luck, which is important. But I think, I think one of the missing points behind that is the, the resourcing and the budget. Because even a Big Idea that does, a Big Idea that doesn’t get seen has a real uphill climb.

John: Of course.

Joel Benge: I think as, as you know, in, in, in marketing and ads, if you don’t spend the money, if you don’t, if you don’t stand behind your Big Idea, it can only go as far as the, the boardroom or the people that you see it.

And I think way too many founders forget that and they’re like, if I just build this thing, it’s awesome and I love it, and, and people will come to it. Um, how do you, how do you. Ch get people to champion things so much that they’ll, that they’ll pony up. I mean, obviously the, they were [00:26:00] just handed, they were handed $5 million and, and needed something to do with it.

That was great timing. But sometimes when you’ve got, uh, a client or a customer that they like it, but they’re just like, oh, well, can we do this? Can we, can we clip a corner? Can we. Do we have to do it at this time? Should we do it at that time? How do you advocate for the right spend to get that Big Idea out

John: Unfortunately, that’s something you don’t, you often don’t have control over. Right? Um, and, you know, uh. The, the interesting part of the story is that it was the, the print ad idea featuring Hitler that got my partner excited, that motivated him to start making some calls. But when we finally got the opportunity to meet face-to-face with these child abuse people and showed them the ad with Hitler, they said, we can’t do that.

Joel Benge: Yeah.

John: You know, we, what we thought was a Big Idea was something that they rejected because it was, it was not what they wanted to [00:27:00] do. And it just so happened that we were at right time, right place to do the TV campaign. But here’s what’s interesting about that story. Um, my partner did not give up on trying to sell that ad, and about three months later was able to get a local.

Child abuse organization to run that ad in a, in a newspaper. And, uh, two weeks later we got a call back from him saying, um, what would it cost to make up 3000 posters of this ad? And I said, why would you wanna do that? He said, well, the phone’s been ringing off the hook by everyone who’s seen the ad from teachers, um, social workers, counselors, therapists, they want copies of the ad.

So can you print up some posters? And we entered the, you know, which was a great, there’s no better testimony to say that it was an effective ad. And, uh, we then entered it in the award shows that won all these, these, [00:28:00] these big advertising awards. And, uh, a month after that, I get a letter from this time the United Nations saying, Hey, uh, we saw your ad.

We think it represents, um. The best mission of the United Nations, uh, about the world. And just to let you know, you just won a United Nations Public Service Award. Let us know when you can come by to the UN to, you know, get your award. So that was the, that was the un part of that story. But to, to answer your question, you don’t really have control.

You know, if you’re dealing with clients that have limited budgets, there’s not a whole lot you can do about that really. Right.

Joel Benge: Yeah, but you just, you can’t give up. You have to stay focused on the Big Idea and keep pushing it. And I think that’s, a lot of people are like, well, it didn’t work, they didn’t like that, so I’m gonna try something else. Um, but if you have a Big Idea that you believe in. You know, maybe not put all your eggs in one basket, but you know, [00:29:00] just don’t, don’t let go. 

John: and you, you, you have to come up with creative solutions. We, you know, when we presented that Hitler ad. To the, uh, other, all it was Albany, New York, um, local organ, uh, regional organization. Just to, for him to get the money to, to, to spend on the media for one newspaper ad was a challenge for him. And one thing my, my partner was really good at, because he had a media background, a lot of, and we’re getting into the kind of the, the nerdy stuff about advertising and media here.

Joel Benge: I knew there was a nerd in there somewhere, John.

John: Yeah, but he, he was, there’s something called remnant space, and that was space that media companies couldn’t sell, whether it be any kind of media, if they didn’t. Didn’t have a, uh, a buyer, uh, for that media. They would basically almost give it away for nothing. Just because they, they wanted something to go in that space.

They didn’t wanna put a big, your ad goes here kind of a thing. Right? So, uh, you know, [00:30:00] we, we were able to get that, that newspaper space as a remnant space. In an Al Al Albany paper. And, um, that’s how the ad ran. So sometimes you have to, um, when you’re facing a situation, if, if you have the, the knowledge and ability to help them solve that problem.

’cause money is always gonna be an issue. You can’t fault any client or company for not having enough money to spend. You would hope that they would get excited enough. And this is again where the Big Idea comes from. Um, the, if they got as excited about a Big Idea, that’s gonna make them figure out how to get it seen somehow.

You know what I’m saying? Even if they have to, you know, try to create some funding for a proj for something. But it’s all about getting people excited and if they’re excited about the messaging, the idea that you’ve created, that’s gonna help grease the wheels for them to do what they need to do to get it [00:31:00] seen.

Joel Benge: We will get back to my conversation with John in just a minute. I wanna thank you guys for sticking with me. 29 episodes. I, it’s crazy. I can’t believe this. We’re on our second season. I’ve got a lot of great interviews coming up. I’ve been talking to a whole bunch of great nerds. Um, and this, uh, show is sponsored by nobody in particular but myself.

So if you wanna support this show, number one. You can rate it, leave a review, share, uh, make sure you’re subscribed in all the platforms. You can also head over to your favorite book retailer. Pick up my book, Be a Nerd That Talks Good. If you do, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review.

’cause that really helps. And I’ll have some, uh, announcements about some giveaways and things like that. I can’t do giveaways in exchange for reviews, but we can certainly find a way to, uh, do a raffle or something like that. So that’ll be coming up. Uh. Pretty soon. So, uh, again, Be a Nerd that Talks Good.

It’s available everywhere and your local library probably, if not, ask him about it. Um, but until [00:32:00] then, let’s get back to this conversation with John, shall we?

Who do you see out there now? Uh, that’s doing really good job of, of striking those Big Ideas, communicating, um, uh, you know, whether it’s, whether it’s individuals or, or ad agencies. I’m happy to, I’ll drop in links into the, so that people can go, go check them out.

Or is there a piece of media that you’re like, this is, this is what good media used to be? Is there anybody out there doing it like we used to?

John: There’s a lot of people not doing it. Um, so I mean, it’s a good question, Joel. Offhand I can’t, there’s nothing to be honest with you, there’s nothing that really comes to mind. I, I get so frustrated because I’m trying to watch a YouTube video and I, it’s always interrupted by commercials and I try to click off of them as soon as possible.

They’re just so annoying, right? So, [00:33:00] um. There’s really nothing that, I’m not saying there isn’t anything out there, but I, I just, I can’t think of anything offhand. What about you? What, what’s your opinion on that?

Joel Benge: Y you know, so, uh, so de despite my, my appearance, male, pale, and stale, I am very, uh, very active on, on the TikToks as, as the kids say. And I think there’s a lot of really good, um, now I’m not specifically looking at ads, but there are a lot of really great communicators out there. And, and, and what I find to be interesting is they’re not.

They’re not held back by corporate interests, they’re not held back by, you know, like you said, the office bullshit. There’s a lot of independence out there. I think our media waves, uh, for, for what they are now, it’s, it’s YouTube and streaming. There is a barrier for entry to get into those. And the really great thinkers, the smaller companies, um.

While we talked about the internet becoming a, a great [00:34:00] democratizer for that, I think there’s still barrier. Um, so I don’t know about your, your thoughts about the changing landscape and how to get, how to get seen maybe is the question like what do we do nowadays to become seen?

John: You know, uh, that’s the question that everyone’s answering. And unfortunately there’s not a, a silver bullet answer for that because it, um, and, and this is why I get frustrated, because there’s so many marketing, marketing people out there. You’ve probably seen them. They’re offering their, um, there, um. How can I describe it?

Their solution to solve your, their, their, their, their marketing funnels. Guar, guaranteed. Do my, my five part system funnel to, you know, and, you know, cookie cutter solutions don’t work for every, every business. It’s, it’s really, this is why I was consulting, [00:35:00] uh, with, with clients. It really is. Um. Specific to whatever the client is, whatever marketing challenge he’s he faces.

Um, there’s some, you can make some generalities that take advantage of all the free media. You know, there’s no reason not to be on YouTube and TikTok and all that stuff if you know how to create compelling messages. Um, and it costs nothing or, or close to nothing to be on there. But, um. You, you really have to kind of customize a, a marketing plan depending on what that client, what his product or service is and, and who his audience is.

It’s all about where, where is your audience? What are they looking at? Right? You know, if you’re dealing with, if your audience is senior citizens, pro, TikTok may not be the best media channel for you, right.

Joel Benge: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that gets back to the, if everybody could mar could be a marketer, they would be, [00:36:00] and everybody who thinks they can because they’re, they’re buying a low hanging fruit. Um. System, uh, they’re, they’re not gonna be able to do it from that cookie cutter, which I guess circles us back to the, the therapy aspect that we really didn’t get into, um, which is uncovering some deeper truths and sometimes some uncomfortable truths, uh, to figure out what we should be marketing about.

John: Absolutely. Um, I, I got into this marketing therapy concept really by accident because I was still thinking, considering myself an advertising guy, not a marketing consultant. I didn’t think it was marketing consultant and trading your out, uh, your, your time for money was a good business model. I was working with clients that had, um.

That I had retainer agreements with that were paying me a, a fee, a monthly fee and things like that, or paying me by the [00:37:00] project, not by the hour. So this, this consulting model came as an accident when I got a call out of the blue from a woman who, um, said that she was referred to me and she had all these, uh, marketing challenges that she was facing, and could I.

Give her some advice and she, she said, I, I’d be happy to pay you for that advice. And, uh, at the time I wasn’t doing consulting again. I didn’t think that was a good road to go down. And I tried to def politely deflect her saying, I don’t do that. If you don’t ha, if you don’t need advertising, I am not the guy for you.

And I, I couldn’t get her off the phone. ’cause the more I tried to kind of, you know, politely deflect. Her, um, her request to work the more she wanted to work with me. And this, this goes back to an important thing, um, when it comes to selling a product, um, if you have third party testimonies. Um, in this case, she had been referred to me by a couple of people, [00:38:00] so it wasn’t me pitching her.

Other people had given her my name and said, he’s the guy you really need to work with. That makes, makes a huge difference. Um. She also, uh, was in the audience when I gave her presentation, and this goes back to what, you know, your Mantra is speak, be able to speak Well, uh, I learned very early on in my career, Joel, that I had to learn how to speak well.

I was basically very introverted guy, but I realized very early on in my career that if I couldn’t get up in front of people. And communicate my, my message effectively that was gonna hurt me in my career. So once I, I did the whole Toastmasters public speaking course, um, and got to the point where I was actually welcoming opportunities to, to speak in front, front of front.

In front of an audience as I’m talking about speaking while I’m mumbling my words. And she, so she happened to hear me speak, and so she was [00:39:00] convinced I didn’t have to, like, you know, she was convinced that I was the guy. And that started the marketing therapy thing because I said, I, I slept on it. I said, John, just, you know, shut up at this point.

Sleep on it. Come up with an hourly rate. And, you know, if she can’t afford it, then, then so be it. And this was in 2004 and I said my hourly rate is two 50 and I get paid up front. And, uh, she, she paused for about, uh, five seconds and said, okay. And came to my, uh, office. She sat on my couch. I pulled out my yellow legal pad and said, so talk to me.

And for the first. 50 minutes of that hour, she was just kind of pouring her heart out. It was, it was like a therapy session. And I finally had to interrupt her and say, listen, we only have 10 minutes left and you’ve been doing all the talking, which is okay, but let me, let me spend the next [00:40:00] 15 minutes giving you some feedback.

And at the end of that, I gave her an extra 10 minutes, Joel, and at the end of that, she said, listen, I, you know. She said, it feels like we’re just getting started. Can we meet again? And I said, sure. And as she was leaving my office and going down the elevator, I started thinking, I wonder if I could build a business model around this.

And my first question is, how would I brand it? And it was pretty easy at that point. It was, it felt like half marketing consulting and half therapy advice, hence the name marketing therapy. And that’s did that for about 10 or 15 years after that.

Joel Benge: That’s, that’s amazing. Yeah. I came to a, a similar conclusion when I had two founders in a room and, and they’re arguing over their Big Idea and they’re arguing over the, the problems that they solve and the value that they bring. We’re building a messaging foundation for somebody. And, uh, I, I just thought to [00:41:00] myself, I said, man, this is a whole lot like couples therapy.

Like you’re getting two people in a room. Maybe you’re getting teams in a room who aren’t in alignment. And that’s, that’s, you know, that’s sometimes what needs to happen before we turn to the headline, before we turn to the website, before we figure out what the colors are.

John: It always needs. I would, I would, I would just say it always needs to happen. Not sometimes. You really need to kind of, you know, I was, it may not seem like it in this interview, but what’s really important for, uh, when someone comes to you is to be able to listen to them, to ask them the right questions.

You know this because you’ve done it. To be able to ask them the questions that are gonna enable you then to do your job. But if you don’t start out by asking them the right questions, doing the due diligence, doing the foundational work, it’s like building a house. You first have to focus on the f the core foundational though the pain that they’re feeling.

Not that you should be, need to be a therapist at all, but [00:42:00] if, if you don’t get to those foundational. Issues By asking questions and then listening to them. You’re not gonna be able to do your job effectively.

Joel Benge: Yeah, I couldn’t, I couldn’t have asked for a better lead in to the, uh, MessageDeck session, uh, that we’re about to do. So, um, I use these cards. The cards have been a, a forcing mechanism for me, um, because they’re non-confrontational and I can just throw a card out there. So what I, what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna walk you through one card from each level of the stack.

Um. We’re, we’re gonna be going through, uh, from the very top, there’s our Big Idea all the way down to some technical details, which we’ll just briefly touch on. Um, so I’ll throw one card out and then just the, the, the first thing that comes to your mind. We’ll do a little mini, mini MessagDeck session here. 

John: Okay. Okay.

Joel Benge: Awesome. So, why have you been successful over others? This is, this is a Big Idea for John.

John: Uh, well a lot of it is luck, as, as we talked about, [00:43:00] but I think it’s also, uh, a commitment to, um. Staying focused on my goal and being committed to that. I mean, I, um, I remember one of my early interviews when I was in Chicago, I was probably 24 at the time, and the creative director was interviewing me, thought he was, he was gonna stump me with this question.

And he said, so tell me why I should hire you. And Good question, right. And I said, at the time I was looking for a job as an art director, and my response was, was simple and it was quick. I said, because I’m determined to be the best art director ever. And uh, he was impressed by that. And I think what that just demonstrated to him is that I was very committed to [00:44:00] being the best.

And I think that’s maybe, uh, an answer to your question.

Joel Benge: I usually respond to that and says, well, why should I come work for you that that’s the therapist. You gotta, you gotta turn it around.

John: Whoa, that, that’s pretty ballsy, Joel.

Joel Benge: Uh, uh, sum up in a really quick story. How did you stumble upon your breakthrough or the Big Idea that you’re working on now and what did you try before? We kind of touched on it.

John: Well, I’m not working on any Big Ideas now. I’m just enjoying, uh, coming on podcasts like yours and kind of, uh, doing it as a public service because I like, um, helping people and inspiring people and enlightening people, you know, based on my experience. So, um. Really, the last Big Idea I was involved with was the documentary film, which I made in, in, um, 2017.

Joel Benge: So talking about a value. So again, uh, um, ads largely being emotional, right? They’re, they’re the hook that drives someone into, into action, um, an emotional feeling as a value [00:45:00] proposition. How do you want your, uh, consumer or your customer to feel after working with you or talking with you?

John: Really happy, really, really happy. Um, and, and to the point where, you know, they were happy to give testimonials. Um, I, I, I wanted them to be successful. That was my goal, to solve their marketing challenges in a way that, um, helped their business.

And, um, I got very excited when the, one of the first people I consulted with. Came to me for a TV commercial. I realized after talking to him for 10 minutes, that a TV spot was the last thing he needed. He, at the time, he didn’t even have a website. This was in the early two thousands. And, uh, at the risk of talking myself out of a job for a a TV spot. I steered him toward doing a, a, a website. And, um, it wasn’t long thereafter that he sent me a [00:46:00] te that gave me a testimonial that said, you know, John saved me from making a $50,000 mistake.

Joel Benge: Wow.

John: So, you know, that’s, that’s to me, that, that’s kind of, uh, that’s what I hope every client that I work with feels after, after working with me, that I really help solve their problems.

Joel Benge: I love that. Um, my concept of Mantras, um, starts with what phrase do you find yourself repeating often? Is there something that you say often that just sort of has become part of the, the John Follis experience?

John: well, my Mantra, and I think it still applies today, I mean, I was using this when I, you know, walked outta my partnership and had to figure out what my agency was gonna stand for and what my Mantra was. In the, in the mid nine or 93, it was, um, it was very simple. Um, uh, it was, you have to get your, your prospects excited if you want them, um, [00:47:00] excited about your, your product or service.

You have to get them excited about your advertising and marketing, because it’s not enough. And this is where I think a lot of nerds get confused. It’s not enough just to give them the right information. If, and I know you, you, you appreciate this. If you don’t, uh, give them the information in a way that gets them excited, that that touches, that, uh, gets an emotional response.

It doesn’t matter. You know what the information is. You have to get them excited and that’s. What, why the advertising and marketing I did over the years was so successful. It didn’t just present the right information, but present it in a way that, that, that got people excited.

Joel Benge: You’ve already answered this one, but I want to show you the card, the testify, so you, you know, testimonials are crucial. Um, talking about yourself is weird. And we’re building credibility there. Um, [00:48:00] I maybe, maybe I’ll, I’ll pivot just a little bit for someone who may be starting out. Um, how do you get those first couple testimonials?

It feels like a cart before the horse thing.

John: You just have to do, be good at your job. You know, you’re not gonna get a test testimonial unless you’re, you’re, you’re good at what you do and, and. You, I know a lot of, uh, people will, will ask, will be bold and they will ask their, their customers or their clients to give them a, a testimonial, which is fine.

I mean, you, you can go ahead and do that, but, um, it’s always better when you just, because you’re, you’re so good at what you do that maybe in an email, maybe they’re not specifically doing it to give you a testimonial, but they’ll say something. And just conversation or an email that’s that’s very complimentary, at which point you could then say, Hey, do you mind if I quote you on that?

You know what I’m saying?

Joel Benge: Yeah, [00:49:00] it doesn’t have to be an Amazon review. I mean, if somebody says something nice about you, capture it and ask permission.

John: Right.

Joel Benge: Awesome. Last one. So the, the, the cards are typically for, for technical companies and processes, but, um, how do you simplify complex solutions? This sounds like this is, this is not an opener for a very long, uh, conversation, but I mean, very simply, um, we make the complex look simple.

Um, do you have any advice or tips for that?

John: Well, I, I think that’s where the talent comes in. Um, that, that’s, that was my training. That’s the whole idea, uh, behind, you know, in advertising you don’t have a lot of time. I mean, even we talk about now, but even back then, if you’re doing a 30-second commercial. If you don’t grab your viewer really in the first five seconds of that commercial, um, it doesn’t matter what you say for the [00:50:00] next 25.

Do you know what I’m saying? So you, you have to be trained and it’s not something that, um, really, um, business owners, entrepreneurs, clients, um, uh. Sh should be able to do, you know, that that’s a skill and an art and, and, and a talent that not a lot of people have. And I would just say, um. Uh, give yourself a break.

Focus on what you do best and, and find the right people that can help you do that very important aspect of your marketing, because that is very critical to be able to take something complex. This is what you do to take the, the complex stuff and how hone it in a way and present it in a way that gets to the core.

Concept and gets an emotional reaction from the people you’re talking to. And that’s, oh, the Mantra in any kind of advertising is keep it simple, stupid, [00:51:00] right? The kiss, uh, strategy, K.I.S.S. keep it simple, stupid.

Joel Benge: Yeah, I used to have a, used to have a mentor who even in, even in the days of PowerPoint and digital, he would print headlines, um, or, or, uh, slogans on cards and do the billboard thing, billboard at 50 miles an hour. Did you, did you get it? Did you have enough time to read it? Because that’s, we’re still billboard at 60 miles an hour, um, attention span, so yeah.

That’s great.

John: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. on, on TikTok. Right. You know,

it’s just, it’s not the, the, the, the things are just getting just shorter and shorter and shorter. So if you can’t keep it simple, you’re just not gonna succeed.

Joel Benge: Yeah. So looking back now, now that you’re at this stage where you’re enjoying coming on podcasts and, and sharing how, how do you keep yourself, um, uh, creatively juiced up? What are the, what are the things that you, that you do day to day? Um, uh. To, [00:52:00] to just stay grounded.

John: You know, that’s, that’s a good question. It’s been a challenge. You know, I kind of miss in many ways. I don’t, I don’t. Need the money. So, um, I, I don’t need to hustle for clients, but I do miss, because it’s been such a part of my identity for so many years, you know, is one reason again, I kind of, when I had an idea for a documentary, I never, I’m not really a filmmaker.

I’m not trained in filmmaking, but when I had an idea that. Uh, I really felt needed to be fleshed out. I said, well, let me, let me see if I could make something that people would wanna watch. But, um, my creativity right now for the most part is focused on music. I’ve been playing guitar since I was a kid, and, um, I’m just, it’s another channel to, uh, uh.

Be creative and there’s nothing that makes me happier than to learn a new [00:53:00] song on my, on my guitar, you know, by watching a YouTube video or some kind of tutorial. It just, that’s, that’s where I’ve been channeling my most of my creativity these days.

Joel Benge: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. Good, good to do things with, with your hands and, uh, and get out of the brain sometimes and just, just noodle.

John: Oh yeah.

Joel Benge: I so much appreciate you sharing your time and your, and your thoughts. Um, and I’ll put links to your, your website and everything.

Anything else you, you wanna share? Um. You know, for the, for the, uh, listeners, we’ll be in the, the show notes, the homework section as I like to call it. Um, but just if you have one piece of advice, um, and you’ve shared so much, uh, for maybe an individual who wants to just improve their communication skills, what’s maybe a first step?

John: Uh, I would say just if that’s something you wanna do, just take the necessary actions. You can’t just want to do something. A lot of people [00:54:00] say they wanna lose weight. Do, they just don’t do anything that helps them to lose weight, right? So, you know, uh, wanting it is great, but you just have to take the necessary action.

So, um, there’s really no excuse right now for not doing anything that you wanna do, just because there’s just so many resources. There’s podcasts like yours that, you know, it’s at their f their fingertips where they can watch some of your. Interviews and, and, and learn from those or do whatever it takes to, to get to the point they wanna get to, you know?

Joel Benge: Awesome. John, thank you so much for joining. You are this, uh, this episode’s John nerd. It’s been an absolute pleasure man.

John: Thank you Joel. Really appreciate, uh, the opportunity and thanks for all the great questions. Really good questions.

Joel Benge: If you want links to the resources mentioned on the show, head on over to the episode page. And for information on booking a message workshop, getting your hands on the [00:55:00] MessageDeck, to check out my book , or just buy me a coffee, go to nerdthattalksgood.com/podcast. 

 Until next time, happy messaging.

 Remember, you don’t have to speak well, you only gotta learn how to talk good.