Kristin: So when I talk to people, I’m always reminded that they’re giving me their time and I don’t want to waste it with the über nerdiness, unless we’re going there. And I’ll warn people, I’ll be like, “we’re about to get really nerdy. Everybody just strap in,” you know, or or something like that.

Just so people understand that this might go right over their heads, but I’ll guide them through as best I can. Like a riverboat captain kind of vibe.

You know, it’s funny, Joel. I’ve had to fight to be viewed as technical for most of my career. And now I’m at a place where I need to fight to not sound so technical. Because as an executive, people don’t like that. We’re weird. Humans are weird. Like, it’s just, it’s, I shouldn’t have to fight for any of it.

I should just be me. And I shouldn’t have to worry about if I’m too technical or not technical enough. She’s clearly not a hacker. She’s more of a risk person. That is very true. Why should that be offensive to me? I’m not offended. Am I not cool enough then? I think I’m pretty cool. Like, I hang out with gorillas, like, can’t really get cooler than that in my mind. 

Joel: My name is Joel and I’m a recovering nerd. I’ve spent the last 25 years bouncing between creative jobs and technical teams. I worked at places like Nickelodeon to NASA and a few other places that started with different letters.

I was one of the first couple hundred people podcasting back in the early aughts until I accidentally became an IT analyst. Thankfully, someone in the government said, “Hey, you’re a nerd that talks good.” And that spun me off into the world of startups, branding, and marketing, for the same sort of researchers and startup founders that I used to hang out with. 

Today, I help technical people learn how to get noticed, get remembered, and get results.

On Nerds That Talk Good, I want to help you do the same. I talk with some of the greatest technical communicators, facilitators, and thinkers that I know who are behind the big brands and the tech talk that just works. 

So what does food safety, factory floors, hacking, and gorillas have to do? Well, when you meet Kristen Demoranville you’re gonna figure all that out. So, uh, let’s just jump right into this. This one was a blast.

Kristen’s the founder and CEO of AnzenSage, a technology consultancy that specializes in safety and security services in the food sector, agriculture, Zoos and Aquariums, which was new when we last chatted. She’s also the podcast host of Bytes and Bites, which just passed 7,000 downloads! Woo! In just over a year, and was awarded the Most Influential Member Podcast by the Cybersecurity Marketing Society.

This is This episode has got a crazy Venn diagram that we’re gonna get into. But, Kristen, welcome, and thanks for joining.

Thanks so much. That’s a lovely intro. Thank you. 

I would love for you, first, to just start off with your nerd origin story. I know when we talked earlier, it’s very circuitous, which is awesome but highlight points so that we can sort of get into this niche that you communicate in, and then we can talk about the podcast and that.

Kristin: Sure. I think people think that I’m a lot younger than I am, which I do appreciate most definitely. But I have had a 26 year career in technology. So long time. Um, And uh, it all started God, yeah it’s. I’ll try to give you the abbreviated version. So we’ll go quickly from high school. I thought I was going to be a middle school history teacher.

I don’t know where I got that idea from. Honestly, I am not that person that takes a special person and I’m not that special. So, I left university and then I was like, “Oh, I gotta get a job” because that’s what you do. And you know, And I went to aesthetic school. So actually I did like facials and like makeup and waxing and all that stuff for a while.

One of my clients hired me, became an HR assistant. HR is not my vibe. I am not insane enough for that. So, shout out to my sister who does it full time, cause yikes I can’t. And then I went back. I was like, I’m going to go back to school. Like I’m cause I’ve been floating between universities and I was like, I need to school.

I really love learning. It’s just expensive as we know. So I was kind of taking my time. I thought I was going to do literature for a hot minute, which is kind of weird, but I didn’t, I mean, I like it. I still do. I’m a big reader, but like, no, that’s not my career path. So a friend of mine hired me to be a tech admin for a tech bench.

Because, as we know, technicians don’t really like being public, in the public, and they don’t like people necessarily. I’m not saying all, I’m just generalizing. And I was public facing, I did all the tickets, I dealt with the angry customers, and all these things. And the company that I was working for acquired Geek Squad, so then I became a Geek Squad Agent. So I was a precinct agent, I think at the time. I don’t remember the titles at this point. It was too long ago. But I eventually worked my way to Double Agent, which is the ones who drove the Geekmobiles. So I drove a Geekmobile all around Metro Washington, D. C. I’ve seen some things, I’ll just say.

And I can’t unsee them now, unfortunately. I also had some really great clients that were in that mix as well. I managed to get myself promoted up to their corporate office, and I was a Secret Weapon of Secret Weapon. I do not know what that actually means. I, it was basically a, like a top tier call center for the agents in the field who are struggling.

First time I ever did a satellite wifi install was over the phone with an agent. It was like in the middle of nowhere. Power of Google is really amazing. I’ll just say to people, Google Fu, as we call it. So, I left there and I started contracting. So I took a journey through all things technology and discovered what I like and what I don’t like.

I went through a telephony company for a hot minute. Not my vibe, but I did learn a lot about servers, which really helped quite a bit. I also walked through healthcare IT for a minute. Not really my thing, but I’m glad I experienced it. And then, the market crashed in 2008, 2009. And all the tech jobs went, bye bye.

And I got caught up in the mess. And I was like, “you know what? I’m going to go back to school. Finally, I’m going to be an adult learner and I’m going to do this.” So “I’m like, I’m going to get a degree in nothing to do with anything that I’ve done.” And a joke is on me. Cause I got a degree in environmental management.

Which I actually use quite frequently in my current roles. But so I was there for five years and then I left. At the same time, my marriage fell apart, and I moved to Atlanta and I started working for this bakery company. And I had to start at the bottom, Joel. I literally went from like director level, IT, whatever I was to help desk level one analyst.

So I ate a lot of humble pie, all jokes intended since it was a bakery company. But it was one of the best jobs I ever had because I learned a lot of what was going on. But let me backtrack. I totally forgot the cool job cause I know you kind of look funny. While I was getting my degree, I had the privilege and the honor of working with an emeritus professor who was studying cortisol levels in bachelor gorillas.

So I got an opportunity to work at a zoo and study and do focal observations and collect urine samples from four bachelor gorillas to determine if they could live together in harmony. They were two pairs that were related, essentially. They are separate now. And I actually just had the privilege of speaking to the president of that zoo recently.

And it was a really great trip down memory lane. However it really taught me a lot about people, not because I humanized the gorillas, but because people watching gorillas is really quite fascinating. On top of that, it taught me a lot about how to look at risk differently in a very simplistic way.

We overcomplicate things as humans. We really do. And it comes down to what is the most important. So really kind of informed my career without even realizing it at the time. I also worked with sparrows and polar bears. And Wooly Monkeys, but that’s for another show at another time. But I’ve definitely worked in and out of zoos.

I’m kind of a junkie as well with them, but long story short, I’ve worked in zoos and aquariums. So that’s why that caveat gets stuck in my repertoire of things that I do. 

Anyways, I went to the work for this bakery company and I started doing OT ICS work, but as an IT person, because we didn’t have an OT department, it wasn’t a thing. Company was too small for that. So I didn’t even realize that I was doing that work until someone said, “Oh, Hey, this is OT work.” And I was like, “what is that?” And it became this whole like, Oh, I’m an OT person. Cool. And then I got, you know, I’m obviously very much in the industry now. People understand that.

It just was really funny that they still talk about this OT IT convergence. And I’m like, what the hell? Cause we did that automatically and didn’t even realize that still to this day, the company does it and they don’t even realize they’re doing it. And I left there for a large electronics company was a really great ride.

Let’s just say I got to travel around the world doing factory assessments because I put my hand up and said, “I know factory security.” Like, and I walked out of there as their director of industrial. cybersecurity. So it was really quite cool how I managed to like serpentine entrepreneur myself into this role.

I think I do that quite often in all the companies I’ve been in, but I left that organization and jumped back into consulting because that’s what you do. The money’s very attractive and you just do it. So, then the pandemic happened and I was furloughed and I reassessed what I wanted.

Got hired at a a regulator, a standards company. Was a global practice director, non vested partner, and it almost killed me, Joel, to be honest. I fainted on a plane to RSA that year. It was not cool. My stress level was out of control. And ultimately, I’m very grateful when I finally left. 

And then I started my own firm because I was like tired of not dealing with things that need to be dealt with the fact that food and agriculture specifically wasn’t added to the critical sectors list until 2020.

Which is like, still somebody needs to explain that to me. I have never had anybody explain that to me. I would love to hear that explanation. Please call me. And so I started this firm cause I really felt like we need to have more sector specific focus. And because I have a background in zoos and aquariums and nobody’s paying attention to that either, that’s obviously added to my company as well.

So, I just passed three years with my organization. I stood up the podcast a year into the company because I figured, well, we should have a bigger conversation. And you’ve already explained how that’s been going rather wild. And um, it really gets crazy when you have a wait list, by the way, of guests.

Like that’s, that becomes such a humbling. Have I made it? This is weird. But if you put out more than, I guess, eight episodes or something like that, you’re considered in the top, like, five percent of podcasting. and if you are consistently putting out, you’re actually in, like, the one to two percent.

So I’m like, okay, like, if that’s the statistics we’re working on, I’m doing pretty good.

Joel: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know no different. This is just get out there and do. Yeah.

Kristin: Exactly. So that’s how I’ve ended up where I am now. And it’s been a wild journey. Obviously, I did not go in a straight line at all. Completely was serpentining my way through things and trying to figure it out. I would never, I wouldn’t change it for a minute. I had all the heartache, all the best things about it is made me the professional that I am today.

And I’m really very grateful for the things that I’ve experienced.

Joel: Yeah, we love a multidisciplinary circuitous career on this program. I don’t know a lot of people who are very successful and are great technical communicators who go in the straight line, right? And it’s not to say that you can’t see what you want to get after and go straight at it, but I think having your eyes open and being exposed to other aspects even of the industry that you’re in is super, super helpful.

We met first officially at the Cyber Marketing Con just after you had gotten that award which congratulations again, that was huge. And you had a really great panel, really great session on I’m going to forget the actual title of it, but it was on basically niching and creating a very valuable podcast from a niche, which you do.

So, you know, it’s not just another cybersecurity podcast. It’s not just another food podcast. You know, I’m trying to not do, I’m trying not to fall into a marketing podcast or a tech podcast. I’m trying to do both sides. How do you how do you try to keep that balance? What do you find to be helpful to represent both sides of this maybe triple sided coin that is Kristen?

Kristin: Sure that’s a great question. I often struggle with that question quite a bit because I don’t want to do, I want to be niche, but I don’t want to like so pigeonhole that it’s just, it excludes people. I think a lot of it comes down to is allies. I have some really great allies in the OTICS space being put on playlists, such as Beer ISAC and things like that.

Really helped me quite a bit because I actually stay very relevant when it comes to OTICS, and they’re all in every industry that I talk about or have had interactions with it, or at least understand it enough in terms of a critical aspect. That actually helps quite a bit for me. In terms of food, the food community is an insatiably curious community, and they are always trying to understand and learn.

Same with Zoos and Aquariums. So, and I’m actually thinking about maybe starting another podcast, wink. We’ll see if I’m insane enough for that. But I do feel like everybody eats, so there’s relatability right there. I always ask the first questions are always the same. What’s your favorite food and your favorite food memory?

Because I want to humanize the moment to remind people that we’re talking about stuff that we ingest that sustains and nourishes us, right? So, that creates commonality across the board, whether you’re in tech or just food or anything, not just food, but like if you’re in food or ag. The other thing too is that nobody is talking about this, and there’s very few people that are advocating in these spaces, and if they are I would probably call them more activists, but they’re not practitioners, so having somebody that’s a practitioner as well as bringing guests on from different aspects of that industry really opens up this wealth of Oh, this is new.

This is curious. So really what I’m doing is I’m personally following my curiosity. I’ll be honest, it’s kind of selfish in that regard. Like, Oh, what do you do? Want to talk about it on air? Like that’s cool. Or you know, the way I gear my questions or the way I interact with what they’re saying on the actual show is just me following my curiosity all over the place.

And I think that Being able to be a relator and a connector, thankfully that I am, helps. And then speaking in analogies and reminding myself of who’s listening to the show. Because I have a very broad audience. Probably you do too. Like, it’s very broad and sometimes they walk in and they’re like, “Hey, I didn’t know that.

I learned something.” And I’m like, “cool, that’s the idea,” right? Like, that’s what I want you to do. Or I want you to challenge your status quo. Like, I want that kind of systems thinking, critical thinking approach to it, but also have a good time and kind of laugh because I mean, we’re talking about really serious things that could go really wrong.

And I want people to be able to at least take it with a grain of salt. And there’s tons of food puns and I will continue to make them.

Joel: Do you have a whole list? 

Kristin: No. I probably shouldd though, honestly, but I do not. They kind of happen and then people just laugh and they think I’m hilarious. And I’m just like, okay,

Joel: Put a pin in that one for later.

Kristin: yeah.
 

Joel: Depending on who you’re communicating to. So when you’re talking with peers, you’re talking with clients you can get very technical. When you’re talking on the podcast, that’s a public open conversation. And, you may not always have the practitioners listening in, right?

You’ve got those curious people, just like you said; people who are maybe voyeuristically dipping their toe into the subject matter but then you also want to have a technically accurate conversation that doesn’t alienate them. Do you have any strategies or techniques when you’re talking with some of those practitioners?

When that conversation, when they’ve used their eighth acronym in a sentence what are some of the things that you do with your practitioner guests to make them more relatable?

Kristin: So what I do is if I’ve noticed, especially when I’m doing the editing on the show, if they get really deep in the weeds, like you said, the acronyms are flying all over the place, or it’s just really high level. I’ve actually bumped out a segment in my show where I’ve said, okay, we’re going back to class.

And I have some kind of like crazy class type sound on the background of it. And I literally will name out all the acronyms. And explain what they are, but then also relate them in a way that people will get it. Like I’ve used the Avengers, I’ve used various other things to try to get people to get a common theme around it.

Because I can say OT and ICS all day long, and you kind of know what that is, and I definitely know what that is. And, but a lot of people don’t. So I sometimes when I’m talking about it, I remind myself that it’s like reading. Someone says OT, I’m like, yeah, operational technology, you know, what’s in a factory?

And then the guest would be like, yeah, whatever, and then move on. And, I’ll kind of slip those things in or I’ll try to have analogies that relate it to just a normal person. And I think a lot of people tell me at the end of my episodes, usually that you’re very easy to speak to and you really make it very relevant for us.

And, or they’ll say something like that or relevant to the audience. And I said, yeah, cause I try to remind myself, if I was listening to this, I might be doing something else like cleaning, Or driving, or running, or whatever, and I don’t want to have to stop and Google something in the middle of a podcast, or try to remember to Google something.

So I make sure that my notes, generally my show notes, not all the time, but most of the time, have enough information that someone can just click on it while they’re doing whatever they’re doing to make it a little easier. Or they can go to the website and it’s there anyways. I don’t want people to be like, “wow, I’m so stupid. I don’t know what this is.” I don’t want that feeling for anybody. Cause nobody likes that feeling. We’ve got enough shame in our lives. Why not? I don’t want to add to that list. So, like I said, I try to break out segments and then I’m always using analogies and, or I’ll bring back a story that kind of fits into that. Try to make it real and relevant.

Joel: I’m stealing that that jargon alarm. I’ll just do it, do a little, you have to act sometimes as the parenthetical and advocate for the listener and remember there are different levels. 

And I think even the practitioners, even the people who are in this stuff every day, you know, you know, OT and ICS, their brain, unless they are incredibly fluent, their brain is still doing that half second, millisecond translation looking at their glossary to remember what these are and you know that’s a mental slowdown.

I tell people even though you’re a PhD and you’re speaking to PhDs your conversation should not be in white paper You know,

Kristin: Yes, for sure. And I think we also have to remind ourselves that we’re all human beings. At the end of the day, we’re tired, you know, especially adults. We don’t have time to remember all this stuff. We don’t have time to think about it. Or an acronym might mean something entirely different to you and your world.

So making sure you, you check back is really important. Also, I think being a consultant really helped with that for me because, you’re talking to people that don’t have time to look this stuff up or it’s not their problem, if you will. And I always kind of reminded myself that I have to, it’s not a dumb down.

It’s just get to their level where they are not a high level and not a low level. You’re just going to talk to somebody where they are. And that’s what I try to do with my audience. I try to imagine we’re in a room and we’re giving a talk and my guest is with me on stage. And we try to meet people where they are rather than, you them trying to get to us, if you will.

And it’s hard. It’s not an easy thing. It’s constantly readjusting. Sometimes my guests just go off the chain, which is totally fine and they can do that, but it means that it’s going to be more work for me on the end. So I’m always taking notes when my guests are talking. I’m sure you are right now with me.

And I try to remember, oh, I got to look that up. Oh, I got to make sure I make a note of that. Or, you know, yikes, I should really look into that. I don’t know what that is. 

Joel: I often Learn a lot from the people that I interact with, you know, I say that I’ve been I’ve, I’m a recovering technologist, right? I don’t turn the monkey wrenches anymore and technology moves on. So I am always humble in the fact that I know people are smarter than I am, but at the same time, that can sometimes be an impediment to them, right?

And so, so I see my job is sitting in the middle and helping look to the helpers as Mr. Rogers would say.

Kristin: I think that’s an important role for you because we need more people that can bridge the gap that can be an advocate for both sides and get the middle ground made. I’ve been around PhDs. I’ve been around people that are really intellectual, who don’t even realize how absolutely ridiculous they sound when they talk sometimes.

Just what in the higher plane are you doing? Like, what is happening? And then I’ve been around people that are so introverted and so nerdy that they don’t know how to articulate and deal with people. So I’ve gone through both extremes where I’m, I probably viewed as more an extrovert. I’m more of a introvert, extrovert.

I can reach a cap of like how much extroverting I can do in a day. And then I’ve got to retreat to like a book and like get away from everybody. So for me, it’s the ability to be able to communicate quickly and effectively and relate and connect with people so I don’t have to either A, say it again, B, deal with anybody else, or C, not exhaust myself any further.

So I think about that when I talk to others, that they might be at the same breaking points as I am of this is so much information I can’t do anymore. How can I make this fun and witty and maybe even entertaining in order to get people to move through the moment? Because a lot of times, and you know this, you’re dealing with people that are upset about technology. They’re pissed off for whatever reason, but it’s probably not about the tech. It’s probably about a kid at home or a relationship or a friendship or work or whatever. You just have to remind yourself to keep it centered, that this isn’t the most important thing of their day. It’s probably a reflection of something that’s in the most important thing of their day.

So when I talk to people, I’m always reminded that they’re giving me their time. The people that are listening are giving me their time and I don’t want to waste it with the über nerdiness, unless we’re going there. And I’ll warn people, I’ll “we’re about to get really nerdy. Everybody just strap in,” you know, or or something like that.

Just so people understand that this might go right over their heads, but I’ll guide them through as best I can. Like a riverboat captain kind of vibe.

Joel: And even that pre acknowledgement is a bit of humility, right? It’s acknowledging, as a technical person, your inclination to, to overshare. And it reassures the audience, “Hey, it’s going to be okay. If I go too fast, you just tell me to slow down. And and we’ll approach this from a different direction.”

And I think that’s great. You know, I’m a big advocate for humility when we’re approaching things from a technology perspective, and that can go into many different conversations.

Kristin: You know, it’s funny, Joel. I’ve had to fight to be viewed as technical for most of my career. And now I’m at a place where I need to fight to not sound so technical. Because as an executive, people don’t like that. So, it’s such a weird, it’s, we’re weird. Humans are weird. Like, it’s just, it’s, I shouldn’t have to fight for any of it.

I should just be me. And I shouldn’t have to worry about if I’m too technical or not technical enough. She’s clearly not a hacker. She’s more of a risk person. That is very true. Why should that be offensive to me? I’m not offended. Am I not cool enough then? I think I’m pretty cool. Like, I hang out with gorillas, like, can’t really get cooler than that in my mind.

But, you know, it’s one of those things where I just don’t understand why people have to keep putting you in a box. Makes me want to rip the box open. And don’t know if that makes me uncomfortable. I don’t know.

Joel: I wanted to get back to the gorillas, actually, because the studies of cortisol, stress hormones, in gorillas, did that, how did that inform maybe some of your observations as you’re watching people? Because they are one of our closest ancestors, evolutionary speaking and our brains function similarly.

You know, do you find yourself often in that boardroom dealing with an angry executive or a stressed executive and you think back to that time with the gorillas and are you drawing lessons from that? I find it fascinating. 

Kristin: Yes. I can tell you a story. I was heading into a hospital, a very large hospital chain in Philadelphia. I was a consultant at the time for a company I will not name. And I was the only female in a room of 25 men. Which is just really just not comfortable already. I already knew where my pecking order was probably going to be.

This is not going to be some kind of crazy feminist moment. I’m just stating a fact so you people understand how the room was looking. There was a new CISO. Chief Information Security Officer, who had just came from one of the big four consulting firms, so obviously this was a proving ground for him, totally understand that.

Thankfully somebody tipped me off of that before he walked into the room. I think if I didn’t know that, I might have responded a little differently. I’m going to get to the gorilla part in a second. 

And I was already really uncomfortable. And I was there to talk about their operational technology and their industrial control systems in the hospital and all the different things that could go wrong with it, all the things they should look at, talking about redundancy and various other things.

So I was the SME in the room, nobody else. was. Unfortunately it was a very awkward meeting. He was late. So that put everybody on edge. The international head of sales was with me. I’m not a salesperson, but this person was with me for some reason. And I just remember the facial expressions on some of these men, because they knew that they were going to have to make a decision of how they were going to handle their behavior based on this particular new CISOs reactions to things. He walked into the room and the energy snapped and I was like oh, like, cause you could, I could always tell when something was about to happen with the gorillas because the energy around me changed. I don’t know how to describe it to you any better. I know that’s like a weird thing to say, like the vibes went off.

Like, no, it’s like the energy change. Like right before a thunderstorm, you could feel something change in the atmosphere. And when he walked in the room, I was like, oh goodness, so it was one of those moments where I was like, I’ve got to decide right now if I’m going to allow him to act as if he is a new silverback, and I’m going to basically lay there and expose all sensitive parts so I’m a non threatening moment, or am I going to buck up and be just as big and bad, and thankfully I decided to take the route of Less the lesser resistance where I just basically placated to I am weak, you are superior, like, you know, all the things.

And so I had to kind of lead them to answers by making him realize them rather than me saying them. So it was one of those, “Oh, yeah, no, I totally understand what you’re saying. You know, these are the things that I’m sure you’re very concerned about. Have you thought about this and this?” And he’s like, that’s not true.

Those aren’t connected to the internet. And I was like, they aren’t. And I said, you have an IT person in the room, right? And he was like, the IT person, like We’re not to only put their hand up and I said, it did it at all, whatever technical thing I said. And they went, yeah, that’s true. And then the new CISO was like, I just learned something new.

And then the respect changed in the room completely. I got pulled into a separate room after with a couple of the salespeople, including the head of sales, the global sales lead. And he was like, “I don’t know how you save that meeting.” And I said, “gorilla behavior.” And he goes, “I don’t know what that means.”

And I said, “I’m not going to explain it to you, but I just want you to know the gorilla behavior saved this whole meeting.” 

Okay. And I actually really do look at people’s behaviors and how they interact with me prior to you know, talking or while they’re talking. And you can even do that on virtual meetings.

I actually recently just learned that the way you sit in your frame of your meeting it really determines how people are going to interact with you because there’s an intimate space, right? If you get like all up in the camera, people are like, whoa, get off me. It’s kind of like when you’re FaceTiming like your elderly family members, they’re like right here, you know, in your

Joel: yeah.

Kristin: and you know, that’s like super off putting, you’re like, ugh, and then you back up because you don’t know better than to not.

It’s the same kind of idea of, If you see something that’s a little bit off with somebody, you need to react to that in a way that, that not only protects you and your energy and why you’re there, but also, makes sure that you cater to them in a way that doesn’t off put you at the same time. So, again, a gorilla is obviously going to hurt you if it’s threatened.

I don’t necessarily think that man was going to jump off across the table and attack me like a psychopath. However, it definitely made it a lot easier to deal with this person because I recognized that he needed to be led there rather than told. And I think that’s what separates a lot of really good consultants from others too, in general, regardless of what profession you’re in, is being able to read rooms and behaviors very quickly and assess that risk fast.

And that is a learned skill. I can’t say that any better, but if it wasn’t for the gorilla behavior, I wouldn’t have survived that particular meeting. And I continue to do that in my career to this day. I have definitely calculated your level of gorilla risk. by the time I’ve gotten into a room. And I feel really bad because I know people are going to listen to this and they’re going to come up to me later at a conference and be like, “so what level am I?

Am I? Am I a juvenile or am I like a full on alpha male?” And I’ll be like, look, I don’t know you.

Joel: That’s right.

Kristin: Keep talking.

Joel: I think just approaching and confronting you with that question gives you gives you a glimpse into where they might be coming from.

Kristin: Yes. But they also don’t realize that I’m a really a predator in my own right. So like, I don’t know if you want to necessarily approach me in that regard. It’s kind of like a challenge issue. Like, you’re a big bad. Let’s see.

Joel: So, I do a lot of talking about the caveman brain and it’s something that I’m very interested in and continuing to even do my own research. I might have to look at the primate brain and the gorillas just a little bit. It’s But it’s not even a matter so much of ego. I think we have a lot of technical egos and technical practitioners tend to come into things thinking, “because I know all of this stuff,” it’s it’s mathematics to them.

“If I add up all of the facts that I know, it results in a certain amount,” but there’s a emotional intelligence, as you say there’s being able to read the room, which I think is experience and learned. For someone who’s just sort of up and coming, maybe they’re a technical practitioner what resources or what things, you know, not everybody gets an opportunity to work in zoos and agriculture.

Where would you suggest someone who wants to get better at that direct some of their attention and energy?

Kristin: Practice. Talk to people. That’s really the first one I would say. Just start talking to people and really listen and watch. That observation power is really quite a power. Getting to know that moment is really super, super special. Also, the other thing too, is if you really wanted to learn a lot about behavior, there are bazillions of free online resources to learn.

I think that it just, it’s all tailored to how you learn. Emotional intelligence training is very popular right now. I believe I think that being aware of yourself is super important. I recommend therapy. Therapy is very helpful. Just learning the tools of how to be a good human and learning the tools of how to deal with others.

And I think that is a really good informer for sure. There’s plenty of resources online. There’s plenty of different things you can look at there. Also social interactions, talking to other people about it. “Hey, what do you think about this?” Or “what do you think about that?” And yes, I understand that it’s a little uncomfortable cause you’re kind of talking about feelings and stuff, you know, and sometimes that is shunned in certain certain cultures.

And also toxic masculinity plays a whole role into this, but I don’t think people should be ashamed of being curious. So if you, as long as you approach it in a manner that’s like, Hey, I would like to know more about this and this is why not? I would answer your questions if you asked. I am right now.

So, I think a lot of times it’s just on how you learn and what you want to learn about. That’s really what it comes down to. But there’s tons of free resources on this and I can’t think of anything in specifics to point you to, unfortunately. But if you want to read about gorillas, there’s plenty of white papers.

I mean, go for it. I think primate behavior is amazing. I’ve taken primate classes in college as well. Primates and Parenting was probably one of my favorite classes. I am a step parent, which is different, but I think it’s really quite fascinating how they parent their offspring and how it relates into the whole of the culture, for sure.

It is different zoos versus wild, but it’s still informative either way. Or if you really love another animal, get to know their behavior. That’s also informative. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an ape. I do think that the way apes are different from each other is really interesting. You know, chimps, you know, groom each other to solve conflict where bonobos just fornicate like crazy to solve their problems.

But I, and we actually are closer, closer to bonobos in genes than we are the other ones by a long shot,

Joel: Okay, now some things are making sense in my life. No, I’m kidding. I’m just joking. I’m joking.

Kristin: No it’s funny when you start thinking about it, but it’s like humans have to take a look at their own internal shame to be able to move through and look at things. And I think.

Emotional intelligence is about recognizing the fact that, you know, you’ve got issues and you’re dealing with them in real time in front of people and you just have to embrace it. Some of the most amazing humans I know are unapologetically themselves. They don’t care. They will be themselves full on.

And I think that’s beautiful. And you can see that they’re dealing with it shame free. They’re like, you know what, this is my own one life, this is how I’m going to live it. And there’s a lot to be said. I wish somebody had talked to me about that when I was in my early teenage years. Maybe I would have lived a little bit differently, but now as a, you know, a 40 something year old, I’m like, “whatever. Let’s do this. This is me, and if you don’t like it, too bad!” And I think that ability to look at it from an emotional intelligence point of view, especially when you’re trying to learn how to be technical, but also be a human in your technical abilities, will really help. This is just my opinion, of course.

​ 

Joel: Hey, it’s Joel. I’m just poking my head in here briefly to thank you for listening. It has been amazing. I’m starting to get some great feedback from people. 

If you’re one of those people and you’d like to support the show, you can go to nerdthattalksgood.com/shop. Just put some swag up there, 100 Percent Nerd t’s, some fun stuff, uh, pins, hats, junk like that, but you know, it would mean an awful lot and would help me out, so.

Joel: Let’s, uh, let’s book some time to do a MessageSpecs workshop for you and help you learn how to talk good. Without any further ado, Let’s get back to my conversation with Kristen.

The direction technology is going, where we’re getting into a lot more automation. We’re getting into, really, I think technology is allowing us to scale a lot of functions. But not yet behaviors, not yet judgments, you know, I mean, heck even the news this week with with AI and the releasing of some of these models it makes me feel from a human perspective that we’re getting smaller.

But I think that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I think it’s more powerful, as you say, to be authentic, to be curious, to have that opportunity. What’s changing in technology in your world with your particular Venn diagrams? And how do you think that’s going to be impacting how we interact with it?

How we even understand technology?.

Kristin: So, I think from the food and agricultural side of the house, And you could even say zoos and aquariums to a degree here. We love to throw tech at problems, which is great. Not mad at it. But why do you need it in your environment? Do you need it? Are they the ability to be able to manage risk? Which again goes back to people and process.

Which is going to be ultimately the decision maker at the end of the day, not just the financial, is yes, this would be really cool and all these fun things. But do we really need to have more of this in the environment? Because there’s a whole set of security issues that need to be addressed around it.

But the problem is the product is never presented with security in mind, let alone the design of it. And again, I want to make the caveat that I’m not picking on security, product security people. That’s not what the statement was. I think,does a does a farmer really need to have an autonomous tractor if everything’s working okay and their yields are still, you know, producing at the level they need to be?

No. Do I think I just upset the ag tech community? Probably. But again, it goes back to, do you really need to have something in your environment or do you just want it? Is it a need or a want? And I think that is something that you can use various different tools such like AI to help make sense of things.

We’re really great as human beings about creating meaning. We can make something mean something. We can express our emotions around it. We could do all these things. AI is a really good tool to make sense of that, all the ramblings that we say in terms of a logical, maybe breakdown of how it would work. So I think the other part of it is, as we add AI to things, and I’m, I would like to throw out that I’m not an AI hater. That’s not what I am. I’m a, I recognize it as a tool, not the be all end all tool, but I recognize it as a tool. I think people are already afraid of it. I think that’s ridiculous, by the way.

It’s just like a hammer, you know, it’s got a function and it does things and that’s it. It’s not sentient. And I think people just want to make this sci fi nonsense out of it so early. Like, give me a break. We would need a large amount of computing space in order to do that. We still haven’t figured that all out and then we got to power it.

We’re creating all kinds of problems that don’t necessarily need to be there right now. And we’re not thinking about it in longterm. We’re trying, but we’re not there yet. So I don’t think that people should really look at it as the be all end all of solving every problem. Again, we’re really good about creating meaning, but we’re not really good about making sense of our meeting sometimes.

And AI is there to make that sense, whether that’s brand building, or if that’s coming up with a new idea or concept that requires you just to have a second, you know, almost a second brain, or if it’s helping you program something or whatever. I don’t think that people need to be afraid of it.

I think they need to be leery of it and do their research. I do think the AI could be a great research tool as long as it’s not lying to you. So, and I think you have to know the difference. So AI is being brought into food and ag quite heavily. Now, we’ve had machine learning for a long time and AI is just another fancy term for it, really.

But do I think it’s going to replace jobs? No. Do I think it’s going to make people’s jobs safer? Absolutely. Do I think that it’s going to help us with the large amounts of data analyzation that we needs to be done in the food industry? Yeah, I think a lot of the consumer you know, Behaviors are going to drive the food industry moving forward.

I think that what we eat, when we eat it, how we eat it, where we eat it, all those things are going to be data points that we’re going to find industries coming into the market and then coming down off the market because of it. I’ve had some really fascinating conversations about that recently that will be on the podcast eventually about how data can inform new food brands and how they can use that to leverage themselves because right now those younger food brands are getting crushed by the large conglomerates because they can’t keep up because they’re using data points, right?

And this is also why we need a privacy policy or privacy laws in the United States and other places because, yikes, I don’t necessarily want you to know that I had a pizza at two o’clock in the morning. You know, not that I do that, but like, if I did, I don’t want you to know that because I don’t want you to know that.

You know what I mean? So I think there’s a lot of like different things there, but in terms of the tech, we are creating tech so fast and standing it up so quickly that we don’t have a security plan around it. Some of it’s really amazing, like fire sensors that have really helped during the last wildfire situation.

Drones are flying water in and like, it’s crazy what’s happening in the best way possible. But do I think that IoT connected fencing for cattle is smart? I mean, sure, but I mean, it’s quite hackable. It’s just an RFID. And we already know how easy it is to pop into that. So I don’t know if we’ve thought this all the way through, but I like the people are coming up with solutions for problems that may be there or are current in some places, but I don’t know.

I feel like we’re running before we’re kind of doing the crawl, fall on our face thing. I think we need to kind of step back a little bit. Again, I’m not poo pooing anybody who’s creating these things. I think again, innovation’s there and it’s great, but the practicality of the fact that a farmer basically puts his house on the market every time he goes every year to do his harvest and his planning, I don’t think they’re going to go out and buy $150,000, whatever, for whatever small job that needs to be done.

I think we need to start solving more of the real world problems. Like protecting data, education, understanding that security needs to be part of this process now. How we handle an incident, how do we contain it, who deals with it, who doesn’t deal with it, because right now all the farmer will do is call the FBI and then they don’t have anybody to fix it.

So, We’ve got that problem. And I really feel like as a cybersecurity industry, we’ve really done a really massive disservice of not supporting this industry better because we all freaking eat every day. And on top of that we all go out and eat together quite frequently. So it’s funny that we’ve overlooked that, but tech isn’t going to necessarily solve it.

We need to understand people and process around it. 

Joel: I love that it comes back to, this is fundamental. This is something that we need to protect and we need to we need to preserve. You know, it’s like, nah, the movie industry, eh, we could do without 18 streaming channels or, you know, how many car brands do we need? But, you know, when it comes down to food, and I’m not saying that, that food and ag is a, is a perfect market either.

You’d know better than I how some of the problems are going on. But when at the end of the day, you’re right, it’s something that we all need to do as humans. And I don’t think that the AI is ever going to replace food. I hope not because I can’t imagine what those flavors would be like with some of the hallucinations. 

What’s something else that you do Just maybe on the regular to keep yourself connected. Obviously food is very important to you. Have you developed sort of particular food rituals or different pastimes. You sometimes see the worst in what could happen to one of the most fundamental needs we have as a society.

So how do you unplug and how do you keep your sanity and all that?

Kristin: I really try to not going to get caught up in the drama of all things that are food, especially since we’re dealing with avian flu outbreaks and eggs and things like that, and I’m not going to get into that because I want this to stay positive for you. But there are a lot of things that are really scary.

I think I’m really grateful for the fact that I grew up in a firefighter family because my dad would come home and we all would have dinner with him. His shift ended at six and by 6:30, we’re all at the table and my dad would talk about his day and he wouldn’t hold back. I mean, obviously we were at an age at the time when he could you know, share things a little bit more candidly. He wasn’t going to get super graphic about it, but as we got older, he did. And I really felt that I got a way of compartmentalizing the difference between my emotions and the situation. So to be able, the ability to click off your emotions and get through what needs to get through is really important.

I’m not saying I’m perfect at it because trust and believe it’s sometimes it’s very hard, especially if there’s certain types of demographics that are involved. But I’m really good about that. Generally speaking, during the day, I’ll get heated about certain things. We’ve got mutual friends that call it the Kristen rage.

But it’s okay. It’s just a good way for me getting it off, you know, getting it out of my head and like, you know, like a volcano, just get it out and be done with it. But what I do at night is I’ve actually stopped paying attention to my phone around 8:30 PM Eastern standard time. If you’re trying to get me after that, I probably will ignore you.

Not because I don’t want to talk to you. It’s just, I don’t want to look at the news cycle. I don’t want to be part of my emails. I don’t want to do any of that. And I will either unplug by reading or I am a gamer cause I am a nerd and I’ll sit and do that. Or when I, if we made dinner, I’ll go downstairs and I will put on some music and clean the house.

Like, you know, it’s just things that kind of separate me from the reality of what I do. In terms of food rituals. I don’t think I really changed too many behaviors when it came to food, especially after talking to food safety people. I don’t eat certain foods anymore because of them, but that’s just because I now know it’s not necessarily safe.

It’s your discretion. I’m never going to tell someone not to do something. I do have a salad with breakfast in the morning, which is kind of a newer thing, but that’s more of a biohacking thing, I guess. I find that greens before I eat any protein really help my body. But that might just because I’m getting old.

I also drink my coffee black now. I’ve been a coffee drinker for I think a couple years now and it’s like changed my life. I don’t want anything in anymore. The idea of people like, “oh, I want to put this creamer in it with this flavor” and it’s just like, the idea of it just grosses me out now. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t love an occasional almond latte or things like that.

But yeah, it’s really changed how I’ve looked at how I eat food. I try to eat clean. I don’t eat packaged food, which to the, it’s funny because I work with companies who make it. So like, that’s kind of a strange thing to say. I try very hard not to eat packaged food. I don’t eat lunch meat anymore. Those kinds of things.

I really like the idea of being in control of my food. And knowing where my food came from as much as I can. Understanding the processes that surround our food system is really difficult because it is the most complicated system on this planet that we did to ourselves. So unraveling where your food came from is actually very complicated and how long it sat in a warehouse before it got to the grocery store and those kind of things.

I buy greenhouse lettuce. I love supporting local greenhouses. I think it’s awesome. I think the fact that we have done more vertical farming is kind of absurd. We really should be because it’s eliminating problems that we’ve created in the natural world where we have the runoff from cattle fields and things like that with E. coli and that greenhouse situation really kind of cuts back that problem because you’re not going to like parade a crowd through there necessarily, you know, those kinds of things. And also, you know, supporting local community because problems when they happen are community problems. So, the ability to give back in that regard is really cool.

And I’m moving into my new house in a couple of weeks and we’re moving into more of a agricultural land own situation. And I’m really excited about it because I’m going to meet all these local people and get to hang out with them and understand how they do things and support them. Which I’m really happy about.

We vote with our dollar and I’d rather give it to people that are close by helping out rather than, you know, one of the large houses. And I’m probably shooting myself in the foot because, sure, I’d love to have them as clients, but at the same time, it’s okay. You know, it’s fine. The world will continue on as it does.

But yeah, I think that the rituals aspect is, you know, just slow eating. I read when I eat. I try not to, like, scroll. Sometimes I do. It happens. If I’m traveling and I have lunch, I’ll sit at the bar and read a book. It usually starts off a great conversation with the bartender, which is fine. But I really try to, you know, even chew slower and not so fast burn.

I think in technology, we crammed food in our faces on our 15 minute break. And then back in the day, we all went out and smoked, you know, and obviously I don’t smoke anymore. I haven’t smoked in a long time. And you know, I don’t eat fast anymore. I eat slow. And even if that means my food’s a little cold, Oh, well, it’s okay.

You know, it’s what it is. I think a lot of people take those moments for granted. And. You’re nourishing yourself, you’re in that moment for you, you’re eating because that’s what your body needs. And I think the ability to be grateful in that space has really changed how I view food because I think about the aspect of who grew it and where is it from or who raised it. And then on top of it, I’m a wine lover. I love wine. I think it’s not just because it’s wine, it’s because of what it is, the story of the soil, the story of the people who worked that land, the story of the climate and the weather that created those particular grapes. I think that every vintage year is special.

I think we should definitely celebrate it. So when I have a glass of wine, it’s not like, oh, I can just have a glass of wine at the end of the day. No, it’s like an experience to me. I love that. And that’s how I try to perceive the food that I eat is this is an experience. It’s not always like that. You know, sometimes you’re in a rush and whatever, but I really try to remind myself that I should be very grateful for this because there are people who struggle with food insecurity and I am privileged and I will always remind myself of that.

So I try to slow down and have those moments. So I think that’s probably the biggest ritual I’ve picked up since working in the industry is I have a lot of gratitude when I eat. And You know, a lot of people have a difficult time with food. It sends a lot of triggers, you know, we all have a love hate relationship with it at times.

We stress eat, we overeat, we eat the wrong things. Fat and salt are like the best things ever, but the worst things ever, you know, you know, and I really try to remind myself that I want to have a good relationship with food, but that starts with my mindset to what it is and why I’m having it and what I choose to eat.

Not just because some fad diet told me I had to eat this much and dah, whatever. I still eat butter. I still eat oil. You know, I still do those things. But I really wanted to change my relationship with it because just like watching gorillas, the basics of it is they are there to sleep, eat, procreate. and exist. Why can’t we just make it that simple? It doesn’t have to be any more than that. We overcomplicate it because we’re human beings and we have really crazy brains that do all kinds of things. And we overthink and we all have opinions. But at the end of the day, we really just want to be able to feed our families, keep a roof over the head and be able to do things that we like to do amongst the things that we have to do and responsibility.

And I think if you just start breaking things down in simple terms, it actually helps you mitigate and manage risk better. Even if you have, you know, restrictions on diets, like I’m massively allergic to bananas, for example. And sometimes that’s really difficult to deal with, believe it or not. And yeah, so when you have food allergies, it definitely changes your perspective as well.

Joel: More bananas for the gorillas then, I guess, so.

Kristin: No, they actually don’t really eat it. They’re not, it’s not really part of their natural diet. Actually, people think that it is not. They really just forage and eat greens. That’s really what they do. Gorilla Salad, as I called it.

Joel: Well, okay, I’ve learned. That’s something that I’ve absolutely learned from today. I’m gonna dig into a little bit more, because, yeah that’s funny. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on. I think you’ve reminded us, so much in the face of technology and the stuff that we do every day and things moving so quickly.

Just the reminders to slow down, be appreciative be curious. I think those things are critical. And, you know, that’s the purpose of this podcast is not just to talk about tech. It’s to talk about the people and the motivations under the tech. For anybody who wants to get in touch with you I will put links obviously in, in my show notes, and I’ll also chase down some other resources, but where else what else is happening with you?

Where can people find you?

Kristin: Probably the easiest place is LinkedIn, let’s be honest. We kind of all thrive in there. I will answer your DM if you message me, as long as you’re not being rude. I’m sure I’ve echoed in that statement, a lot of people just went, yeah. Obviously the podcast has a website and there’s a website for my company.

There’s all kinds of contact forms you can find me. If you want to look at some of my photography, go to Instagram. If you want to watch me do things in my real life, you can also go there. I suppose I do occasionally post on there. But LinkedIn is my preferred social. experiment, as I call them now.

But yeah, I’m also on BlueSky. I haven’t posted there yet, but I’m there. Eventually I will. We’ll see what happens. But yeah, I think you’ll be able to find me. You could also just Google me. I have a pretty memorable name.

Joel: Yeah we’ll track down all those links and include them in the show notes. Definitely subscribe to Kristen’s podcast. It’s Bites and Bytes spelled two different ways. I’ll let you figure out what order that is. You can probably find it. It is, it has been such a pleasure.

I had a real great time meeting you in Philly and we’re local. So, we got to go out and have some great food, look at the monkeys and talk about tech. I think that’s the trifecta there.

Kristin: Yeah, that’d be awesome.. 

Joel: Thanks so much for joining.

Kristin: Pleasure.
 
 

Joel: If you want links to the resources mentioned on the show, head on over to the episode page. And for information on booking a message therapy workshop, getting your hands on the MessageDeck, to check out my upcoming book, or just buy me a coffee, go to nerdthattalksgood.com/podcast. 

 Until next time, happy messaging.
 

 Remember, you don’t have to speak well, you only gotta learn how to talk good.